It's interesting that the only times we've seen Dean defy his dad was in defence of Sam. Never in defence of himself.

When John and Sam went head-to-head and it looked like they were going to come to blows, Dean stepped in - FACING JOHN - and physically pulled them apart, shoving Sam into a place of safety at his back. Tacitly taking Sam's side.

Almost staking his claim - 'my kid, not yours - back off'.

And again in the motel room when John found out Sam was having visions, Dean stepped in front of Sam and read his dad the riot act about not being accessible. But oh, Dean's little moment of shock when John admitted he was right...really smacked of a young man who had little or no self-worth - that he couldn't believe he was right in disagreeing with his all-knowing, always-right infallible, superhero father.

You're right, though - child Dean died the night of the fire, along with Mary. And along with John Winchester the father, as well. There were a lot of deaths that night. 

I think Dean had it so much harder, despite his bluster and scoffing at normal people and their normal lives, because he remembered being one of those normal people. He remembered his dad being normal - John went to work, came home, played ball with him, read to him, bathed him, cuddled him and tucked him into bed. 

Then John became their drill sergeant - teaching him to shoot, to hunt, drumming it into him to always protect his brother from the things in the dark. I will always feel hearbreak seeing that nine-year-old hefting the shotgun, then hesitating, and finally being ripped to shreds by his dad's anger and disapproval because he left his brother alone to be attacked by the shtriga. Those scars ran so, so deep. 

And the disbelief in those big green eyes when John finally told Dean he was proud of him - to the point where Dean wondered if it really was his dad......how heartbreaking for a son to grow up never expecting a fatherly pat on the back or a verbal expression of pride and love. 

That hurt child is now over thirty years old, but he hurts still, I feel. 

Jules

Oi - stop making me read these drabble things! 

J

Author's Response:

I think that is such a telling statement, one we all see but is ignored by the Winchesters themselves.  Dean stands up to Dad for Sam.  Never for himself.  Willing to back away to avoid that confrontation, willing to take it without complaint because that's what good little soldiers do.  It's what's expected.

I love how John backs down from Dean, showing him his respect.  It shatters me that Dean is so surprised when Dad tells him he's right.  That undercurrent of doubt when it comes to his dad making him seem hesitant and wary. Afraid of a misstep.  Afraid of losing what love he has grasped hold of.

Sam fans will argue how hard Sam had it, but I agree, I've always related to Dean and how hard he had it.  He lost it all that night, his mom, that loving, warm father, all sense of normal and safety.  No wonder Dean scoffed at normal, normal hurts!  Being a hunter and being strong, killing evil and conquering all those doubts is a much safer alternative!

Jensen portrays that hurt child in Dean so well.  Any other actor would have gotten lost trying to convey that.  It doesn't make Dean weak or less heroic to bear the burden of that hurt.  It makes him human and oh, so brave to overcome and still maintain that forward momentum.

These drabbles are addictive for me as a writer.  I don't have the time to craft a longer story and these just seem to flow organically out of the strife the Winchesters live in.  And they bring such marvelous discussion!

B.J. 

Not driven by vengeance, I think Bobby was able to take that step back that John couldn't - and we saw for ourselves how he tried to give Dean snippets of time just being a boy instead of a hunter-in-training. Dean was robbed of his childhood in more ways than one. John put a lot on his tiny shoulders. I wonder whether John realised that for Dean, approval became a sign of love, and failure meant to lose his father's love. Dean put family first, needed them in a way they didn't need him, as the YED so cruelly stated. 

Not that Sam and John didn't need Dean or love him, but their drives were different. Dean defines himself by family. He needs to be needed.  Sam needs Dean, but in a different way - Sam's not good on his own, and I think is a wee bit naive at times, but as long as he has Dean at his back, he can forge along quite fine. Especially if he's got a mission, like finding Jess' killer, or saving Dean from his deal. 

I think Bobby saw that weight on Dean's shoulders and wanted to just treat him like the little boy he really was. I'm wondering whether that argument between him and John was over Dean, or Sam. Had to be one of the boys...or both. I also think Bobby made a wonderful surrogate dad for the boys when John died - not taking John's place, but watching over them the best he could, and giving them a safe place where they could come and regroup, have a little slice of home and family amidst the chaos. 

Bobby knew what they had to face, but he also knew there had to be down-time to keep them sane. 

Jules

Author's Response:

Sorry it took me awhile to get back to answering.  I always love discussing the Winchesters with you.  So much insight and agreement.

I think Bobby was able to see more clearly, both as an outsider not as emotionally wrapped up in Mary's death and also as a survivor who grew up craving love and acceptance.

Even tho Bobby knew his own dad was a dick, he was still his dad and boys need a father. He saw how much Dean loved his dad and needed his approval.  It had to break his heart because he knew Dean deserved so much more.

I wish they'd tell us what the fight was about.  I'm sure it involved Dean.  Either instigated by Sam leaving and the aftermath, or simply Bobby bristling at the demands made on Dean and how damn unfair it all was.  It might have even been Dean getting hurt on a hunt and Bobby blaming John.

Sadly we all know Dean would side with John. Forgive him any wrongs and try to stay on his good side.  He must have missed Bobby, but as long as he had his dad he coped.  How sad that he hesitated to go to Bobby when he feared he was losing his dad.  Dean was still trying to be the man, be the leader and it shows his strength in that he admitted they needed help and went to Bobby.

Bobby was always Dean's protector, the keeper of the child and the good friend and nonjudgmental ally Dean so desperately needed.

B.J. 

It's hard when idols fall from the pedestal we've put them on. And I think the final blow for Dean might have been finding out about Adam. But I also think Dean needed to take off his rose-coloured glasses where his father was concerned, and not just see John as a man, for to move out from under John's shadow and become a man in his own right.

Dean's always defined himself, I feel, by what he is to others - John's son and good soldier, Sam's brother and protector. And I think Dean is driven by the need to be needed. If only he could see himself as we see him, eh? But it was a very, very hard lesson for Dean to learn - that his father was a flawed human being, after all.

John Winchester was a man I started out loathing for what he did to his sons, but whom I've come to be a wee bit fascinated by over the years, not just from being around two of my closest friends who also happen to be dyed-in-the-wool John fans, but also from viewing certain parts of his behaviour repeatedly to try to get inside his head. For instance, his sacrificing himself to save Dean's life - and ultimately Sam's as well. Greater love hath no man, and all that - and he did love his sons. It was just a pity he couldn't show them or tell them that more often. 

And no, not a deadbeat dad - just one trying to cope with the grief of losing his wife, trying to raise two young boys, and fight things that sane people couldn't even imagine, must less face down in the darkness. Flawed, grief-stricken and struggling. Falling back on the only thing he could be certain of - his Marine training - in a world gone suddenly dark and terrifying, and utterly confusing. 

It's just so sad that his boys both have self-esteem issues up the wazoo because of it. 

Hey, BJ - hope you're doing well and enjoying season 8. I'm looking forward to the all the reveals. So many questions, and we're only six episodes in so far down under. 

Jules

Author's Response:

Hey, Jules! Terrific to hear from you and have this awesome discussion on those most fascinating of men, the Winchesters!  I'm super busy at work, the dreaded Black Friday looming, but yes, I am really enjoying S8, most especially the insight into Dean and his Purgatory flashbacks.  I'm loving Benny and desperately want for him to remain loyal to Dean and not betray him.  What a heartbreaking truth that was, that a vampire is the ONLY one who hasn't disappointed and betrayed Dean!

I've always seen the love John had for his sons, and the heartbreak and despair from Mary's death.  I think (like Jensen's portrayal of Dean) it all comes from JDM's way of drawing us in.  I simply can't hate John, because of Dean's love and loyalty and also because ultimately he did the best he could and the bottom line is he loved his boys and would have done anything for them, including dying.  Sadly, he never seemed able to step beyond the tragedy and love them unconditionally as all boys want their fathers to do. 

Dean does take all self-worth from hunting and protecting his family.  That has been a constant, him feeling that he is responsible for others.  Love how Cas handled that when he revealed to Dean the truth of why he was left behind in Purgatory.  Loved Dean's response there, that he doesn't need to feel like crap over failing yet again.  No, he certainly does not and yet, being Dean, he can't help himself.  His heart always tells him it is his fault.

Thanks for all the insightful comments.  Later, B.J.

I really liked this drabble.  I agree with your view of Papa Winchester and I also would like to see Jeffrey Dean Morgan back on SPN so we can see all the layers of John Winchester.

Author's Response: Thanks! There is so much potential there, for Dean to finally come to terms.  I think Dean needs to see John realistically before he can see himself.  And JDM is such an appealing man, we need more hotness on Supernatural! Later, B.J.